Gabriel Bar-Cohen
4/23/19
The Jazz Maniac: Conversations with K-Wash
Kenny greets me at the front door of his Brooklyn apartment. He is wearing a “jazz radio” t-shirt and jeans. As we climb the stairs to his study I can already hear the sounds of a record playing. The room itself is covered from floor to ceiling in shelves, filled with countless Vinyl LPs and CDs.
“How many records do you think you have in total?” I ask.
“Countless,” he replies with a shrug.
With my curiosity piqued, I decide to put his formidable collection to the test. I ask him whether or not he has a record that I haven’t been able to find on any streaming sites or online stores: Stan Getz’s “Voyage.” Sure enough, after a moment’s search he pulls it out and hands it to me. That’s where we pick up our conversation:
Kenny Washington: That’s Herb Wong’s label. Herb Wong was a disc jockey in the San Francisco area. He had a couple of different record labels, one was Blackhawk, and I can’t think of the other one. Voyage. That’s a nice record! This label didn’t last that long. Herb Wong. He was a very nice man.
GBC: That was 1986. You were just coming up at that time, correct?
KW: First record I did was in September of 1977 with Lee Konitz.
GBC: Okay. So how would you say the music scene, specifically the New York City music scene has changed since that first 1977 record with Lee Konitz?
KW: Hm. It’s changed in many ways. There’s less bands to play with. There’s less for young musicians to latch on to. In other words, they’re not getting the experience that they should get. I see it all the time. It’s sad. The music has changed and a lot of those musicians are gone. There are less guys that are leading working bands, bands that are staying together. Most of those people, I’m talking guys like Sonny Stitt, Milt Jackson, Eddie “Lockjaw” Davis, Eddie Harris, Johnny Griffin, Hank Jones, Tommy Flanagan, ya know, all of those people had bands. Bill Hartman and Junior Cook. Stan Getz. They had bands.
In order to play in their bands, you had to be on your “A” game, and a lot of times these guys would come to New York and they would put together a band just for a single engagement. So you’d come to the gig and you might find Tommy Flanagan playing piano, or maybe Ray Drummond or Sam Jones playing bass. There’s no rehearsals, so they would call tunes, and if you didn’t know those tunes, they would get pissed. Or they might be nice to you but they’d never call you no more. I’ve seen that happen to many guys.
So you see I caught the tail end of that kind of stuff. As a drummer, each one of those guys wanted you to play a certain way, and the reason that I got all of the calls is because, see, I’m a fan of this music as you can see from this room. I love this music and I study it. I already knew what they sounded like and what they wanted before I even knew these guys.
When they would call, I knew their tunes, their originals, whatever I needed to know, because there wasn’t any rehearsal. This was just a one night gig. It could be at the Jazz Mobile, Sweet Basil’s, or Seventh Avenue South. One night gig. Somebody recommends you, or they heard about you or they heard you and they would call you and then you’d call tunes. As a drummer if you knew how these tunes went, certain rhythms that went behind these tunes, how the tunes were constructed, well they were very impressed and they’d call you the next time.
So when I was coming up I got a lot of those calls. See I’m from New York, so by the time all those cats, you know, Lewis Nash, Jeff Watts, Carl Allen got out of school, I’d played with all of these people. In 1976, 1977 there were very, very few young guys that were around that could handle a gig like that. I was the only guy around that was that age that could play all of that stuff.
GBC: How did that come to be?
KW: Well I’m from New York and even before I was really on the scene, I was watching these guys. That’s how I got to be friends with Philly Joe and Lou Hayes and all of these people. Asking them questions. I was always around. That’s how I got to friendly with them because they would see me all of the time.
Vanguard started at 10 and I would get there at 8 or 8:30 to get a ringside seat to see Philly Joe with Bill Evans or Lou Hayes playing with Woody Shaw and Dexter Gordon. I’d sit there and watch them. I was there all of the time. I was a pain in the ass truth be told but I was asking them questions, things I wanted to know about record dates, things that they had played, things that they had done. They’d look at me and say “man how the hell did you know about that record?!” I’d ask them about records dates that they had forgotten all about! They’d look at me like I’d lost my mind!” But guys like Mel Lewis and Lou Hayes took a special interest in me.
GBC: You’d say that the scene has change largely in part because these musicians are no longer around?
KW: Absolutely! That’s what I was going to say! To answer your first question, these guys nowadays, they don’t have to do any work that I had to do. You had to be on your “A” game. You had to know this music. These guys were tough, man! When I was with Johnny Griffin, man.. It wasn’t Griff that was tough, but it was Ronnie Matthews, the great pianist, and Ray Drummond. They were tough (on me). Certain things I wouldn’t play. They would be the first to tell me all about it!
Yeah man see, If you didn’t play well they would jump on you. Ronnie Matthews would get on you if you didn’t have stuff together. They wanted consistency every night. They don’t care how many flights you were on, everyone was tired! Those guys lived by the code, as Johnny used to say; “The band stand is like the pulpit. It’s sacred.” When I joined (Griffin’s) band he said “young talent, I don’t care what you do off the band stand. Rob a bank! Go to the moon! Do whatever you want. Just be on the bandstand on time, ready to play. That’s all I ask. The bandstand is sacred. As long as you remember that, you can stay and play with me as long as you want. And that’s exactly what I did. I played with him until he died.
GBC: Wow! That’s incredible. So having regular working bands was more common back then. What else?
KW: But now you see, each one of these bands, you had to learn tunes. One thing that they all played was standard tunes. American popular songbook. Gershwin. Cole Porter. Irving Berlin. Great master composers. You had to know tunes.
Nowadays, these guys don’t know any of those tunes!
GBC: So just to be clear, you’re talking about Great American songbook tunes and not the standards that were composed in the 60’s by, say, Wayne Shorter?
KW: Oh you talking about jazz standards. They don’t know those either! They don’t know anything! They know a few tunes here and there. Just yesterday I asked (my students) to play “It’s Alright With Me.” Cole Porter. They didn’t know it! That’s because when they go on the bandstand with their contemporaries or perhaps with their own bands, they don’t play this stuff. They just play their own tunes. They don’t know anything else but that!
GBC: So what would you say is the advantage to knowing all of the standards and great american songbook tunes?
KW: Well before all of that, just the lack of listening to music. The lack of studying the music. See maybe I’ve taken it to the extreme (*gestures to the hundreds of records lining the walls*) but most of these guys don’t even know half of this stuff. And I’m talking basic records.
GBC: Such as?
KW: Classic stuff. Like for example I’ve had students that don’t know a classic Hank Mobley record that they should know about. I’ve seen it where guys don’t know Miles Davis’ “Walkin” record! True story. Not funny but it is funny. I was one of the instructors at NYU at one point and a guy came for a lesson and we was walking about the cymbal beat, you know, spangalang, and I asked him if he heard of (Walkin’) and he said “yeah is that the one with Tony Williams” and I said HELL NO!
GBC: Haha! That’s “Four and More!”
KW: Yeah! The one with Kenny Clarke!
GBC: 1954, right? It has the picture of the traffic light on the cover.
KW: Yeah. The one with Lucky Thompson, JJ Johnson, Horace Silver. Percy Heath is on that too. I said, ya know, that’s how you get that cymbal beat. Listen to it over and over again. That’s how you get that sound. I said get that record or you fail! I’ll give you a donut hole right now! And so the guy looked at me like, oh god what did I get myself into. I did that with a number of guys.
Funny thing is, they used to do this benefit at this hospital to raise money to help drug addicts. As a matter of fact Charlie Parker’s widow Doris was a part of it. They would do this jazz concert and a lot of musicians would play for free. Well I used to get invited to play it and one year I was coming up the stairs and who do I see? Percy Heath. Great bassist. He immediately gives me this look and frowns and says “young man, I need to talk to you.” I’m thinking, oh geez, now what did I do. He takes me off to the side and says “somebody told me that you make all of your students buy that record that I made with Miles or you’ll fail them. Is that true?” So I tell him, “yeah!” And he looks at me and says, “man, you a crazy motherf**ker!” *laughs*
And I told him “well it doesn’t get much better than you and Kenny Clarke playing together!” and Percy says “well as a matter of fact we were married on that session!” *laughs*
He keeps looking at me and goes “you’re out of your mind, man!”
Classic records, man, you know. Atomic Count Basie. Classics. Staples. They don’t know those records. I’m not talking obscure records or anything. Stuff that they should know to play this music. Same thing with standards.
Any knucklehead can write a song! All the great jazz composers. Like Benny Golson, who is still on the scene and playing great, if you ask him about what he did to become a great composer, sure some of it is god given, but he told me “I listened to Duke Ellington, Tadd Dameron, Cole Porter. That’s how he got ideas from his own things. You need that kind of musical background! You need basics. Context. Experience. Listening to other people. Taking, borrowing from other people like Benny Golson did.
GBC: Right! There’s a lineage. A tradition.
KW: Not just jazz. Classical music. All kinds of things. His abilities come from more than just jazz. These guys know can play their instruments, but musically they’re nowhere because they never listened! Never got cussed out on the bandstand by these older musicians! Like, learn this or you’re fired! Have this done by this time. Guys putting pressure on you.
GBC: So in a way you’re saying that some of that is on the teachers and the education.
KW: Well that’s a whole other story! I mean, the world is different now, man! Even from when I was coming up. I grew up in NYC.
GBC: Staten Island, right?
KW: Well I was born in Brooklyn but I grew up in Staten Island. So in the 60’s they had this big push to keep kids off the street. Keep ‘em doing something. So by the time I was 8 or 9 years old they had these after school programs. When school ended at 3, they had these programs like gymnastics, art, and music. So you’d go to these classes until 5 maybe 6 o’clock. It kept you off the streets. Mayors like John Lindsay, he was the mayor of NYC in the 60’s.
Those teachers, man, they were fantastic. They really cared!
GBC: Anyone in particular you had?
KW: A bunch of em! I’ll get there. Not so much jazz guys, but classical. They were very serious about teaching. They made you learn those basics. They made me learn things I still use to this day! You had to work for it too. They were fantastic.
By the time you started in elementary school or junior high you had your stuff. You’d come into the parent/teacher conference and say “maybe it’s time to get this kid an instrument. I think they got something.” And maybe you get it for Christmas! *laughs* So know you’re in another zone! You better practice once they spend all that money! *laughs*
The citywide and borough wide orchestras helped too. Those teachers got you prepared and ready!
Nowadays it’s tough with budget cuts. People that want to play.. It’s harder for them.
GBC: What about the difference between how we learn the drums now?
KW: Well. Teachers back then.. You couldn’t get away with anything. As a drummer, you had to learn your rudiments. No way to escape that. You had to learn that before you get on the drumset. If you thought you would leave one teacher and go to another, they’d stress the same thing!
Before you learn this funk beat that’s on James Brown’s record, you had to learn rudiments. And they were all taught the same way. Nowadays times have changed.
For one, the concentration level.. They got the concentration level of a Beanie and Smith Crayon! Zero!
GBC: Why is that? Technology?
KW: Absolutely! That’s what I was getting ready to say! Computers. Everything is fast, fast, fast, go, go, go, now, now, now! They don’t have the ability to just sit back and analyze something on their own. Take it apart. That’s how you learn.
Wilcoxen, for example. Modern Rudimental Swing Solos. Charley Wilcoxen. I couldn’t play that stuff! I had to take it apart. Bar by bar, beat by beat. With technology, everybody’s multi-tasking! You can’t do that when you learn how to play music. Kids don’t have the concentration. I see it all the time teaching in school. They’ll be hacking through these (Wilcoxen) pieces like a guy on TV hacking through the jungle with a machete! Psht. Psht. Psht. Sounds horrible! Slow it down and take your time with it.
And another thing. Nowadays, from the time they’re young, take a basketball camp for example – everybody’s a winner! They don’t want to hurt anyone’s self esteem! Even if you suck, can’t shoot at all, you get a gold star anyways, instead of saying, okay, you’re not going to get the gold star today, but once you learn how to shoot the ball through the hoop, then you’ll get it. Here, let me show you how. So he shows him how and they work on it and come back in a month or two and boom! Then they earn their star and they actually worked for it!
GBC: Different work ethic.
KW: Yes. DIfferent work ethic. They’re not working at anything. I see it all the time. I tell people to take one bar, slow it down, and work at it. Sometimes I even have to say “put the sticks down. Inhale. Exhale. Now pick ‘em back up and play it slow. There ya go! Now you’re cooking with gas!” *laughs*
See I want them to pay attention to how their hands feel. See how it feels.What’s happening with that flam or whatever. How their hands are operating. How one hand works with the other. Then they got that in their head, in their brain, I call it the “dome-piece,” in the dome!
Or this. Sometimes cats come to me for lessons and they have their phones. Those goddamn phones! I hate those things! I hate them! They’ll have it on buzz mode. They’ll be doing okay but the minute that phone goes “bzzz,” their concentration goes out the window! I get so pissed! When that happens I want to step on that cellphone just like a roach! I get so angry! I can’t do that because I want to have the gig… *Laughs*
Turn that sh*t off! Take the sim card out! When it’s time to practice, take the cellphone and put it somewhere you can’t see it or hear it! Turn it off. That’s such a problem!
You can’t sit up their and practice and be thinking of something else. Or you’re listening to some music while talking on the phone, and the next thing you know you’re typing on Facelift or some of that other stupid sh*t! *laughs*
GBC: Facelift! That’s a gem!
KW: That’s what I call it. Facelift. I hate that sh*t!
GBC: I’m assuming you’re not on Facebook.
KW: Nope!
GBC: You don’t have a website?
KW: Nope!
GBC: Well obviously you’re not in a position where you need to market yourself. Everyone knows who you are.
KW: I don’t know about that..! *chuckles*
GBC: Everyone in the jazz world, for sure. But what advice would you give to kids in this age, in 2019, such as myself, who are trying to book gigs, promote themselves, and get on the scene.
KW: The best thing you can do is to be a good musician. If you’ve listened, you’ve practiced.. Try and play with people better than you. That’s number one. Play with people that are better than you that will tell you the truth. That’s another thing that’s lacking out here. Something that I call “guy smileys.” I hate guy smileys. “Yeah bruh, yeah bruh, sounds good bruh! Yeah, swinging bruh! Everyone’s a guy smiley! I hate that. Tell the truth!
I’m brutally honest, man! It’s gotten me in a lot of trouble over the years. But I’ve made my bed and I know how to sleep in it. The guys I learned the most from were the guys that were brutally honest, I mean, they would just tell you the truth. If you sounded like sh*t they would tell you to your face. Mel Lewis, man!
I was attracted to that attitude! I got along well with Eddie “Lockjaw” Davis, Mel Lewis, and Milt Jackson! I got along with those guys fine, man! Mel was tough!
GBC: I’m a big Mel Lewis fan. Can you tell me a little bit more about your relationship?
KW: Man, Mel Lewis! I was always a big admirer of his. So when I joined Lee Konitz.. Lee used to say “man you play great, but you play kind of loud! I don’t have the guts to play that loud!” He used to stay on me about that.
One night, at this place called Stryker’s Pub, right across the street from where Lee Konitz lived, the club is no more.. I played the first set and the club was small so we went outside on the break. It was summer and I’ll never forget I was talking to a great trumpet player, Burt Collins, and Lee comes out and he sees me and he says “somebody wants to meet you man,” so I go back in the club with him and there sitting down is Mel Lewis. Lee introduces us and Mel says “hey I remember you! Aren’t you the guy that had my record on the Mode label last year? You wanted me to autograph it for you up at Grant’s tomb?”
GBC: Is that the one with “Brookside?”
KW: Yeah that’s the one. That’s the one with the portrait on the cover!”
GBC: I love that record!
KW: Yeah that’s a great record. At that time that label “Mode” was very rare. At Grant’s Tomb this was with the big band and I was sitting behind him and he remembered that. So Lee walked away and he told me to sit down and he kicked the chair out and it moved and I sat down and we were sitting face to face. He said “yeah man! You play good! Good time, you have a good sound on the instrument, good ideas – BUT YOU PLAY TO GODDAMN LOUD!” Just like that. He says “ don’t make no sense to play drums that loud. You’ll knock out all the windows in this joint! And you young drummers you never use (feather) your bass drum! Now If it was a funk record and there was no bass drum then you’d think something was wrong now wouldn’t ya!?” *laughs* And then he says “and that ride cymbal that you got.. That’s not a good ride cymbal.. That’s not good at all..” and he shook head at me. He just reamed me, man! Right there in front of me. Right then and there.
I said, “Mr. Lewis, I know you have lots of cymbals. Maybe you could lay one of yours on me till I can find one?” So he’s looking at me and he pulls out a piece of paper and a pen and while he’s looking me dead in the eyes he says “call me. We have a lot of work to do!” And he shoved the paper in my face. I’m thinking, “oh sh*t!” *laughs*
About a week later I call him up and he invites me to his house. Now it was about 7 o’clock. I didn’t get outta there till about 3:15 in the morning! And he had changed my whole conception of the drums. The function and how I was playing. We didn’t pick up one drumstick.
GBC: It was all conceptual?
KW: All conceptual. And the things that he had to say.. When I first walk in he says “young man, you wanna be a success in this business? Well you gotta learn adaptability. If you don’t, you won’t survive.” And the second thing he says is “and don’t get married!” *laughs*
GBC: Haha! Wasn’t he married?
KW: Haha yes he was! And I got married too! I mean it was a mistake! *laughs*
GBC: So he was right!
KW: He may have been right about that! In fact he was the one who cooled me out when I was going through a divorce and all that. But that’s another story!
So from about 7 he started playing records of himself playing with these different people. See he might’ve been cattin’ about himself, but it was a fantastic lesson for me. He was talking about playing with the Stan Kenton Orchestra, and the difference between him playing with Kenton versus Stan Levey and Shelly Manne who both played in that band. And the difference between that band and Ray Anthony’s band. And then he also played one of the first pop records, “Alley Oop.” He was on that date.
GBC: Hey I grew up listening to that song!
KW: Yup. He played that for me. Then he played “Color Me Barbra” – Barbra Streisand’s first or second record. He was on that. So he played all of these different records and in each of these different settings you could hear how he was playing a different way to fit the situation.
And another thing he told me about playing loud – it’s something I follow to this day – he said “If you can’t hear everybody on that band stand, it is your fault. Clearly YOU were playing too loud. You don’t need a monitor. Monitors are bullsh*t. That’s a false security as to what’s actually happening because you’re listening for the monitor and not what’s happening on the bandstand.” He says “if you can hear everybody, even the piano that’s on the other side of the stage, you are playing the right level. And if you can hear it, that means everyone in the audience can too. Trust your ears!”
He says “this will work whether you’re at Carnegie Hall or Dixie Roadside Diner. It works wherever you play.” I’ll never forget him saying that. That’s the best advice that he could give me.
After I left his house at 3:30 in the morning, my head was just popping! It made my change my whole conception about how to play the drums. This whole adaptability thing.
Before that, Lee Konitz had told me about this record that he made. You ever hear of this record, “Motion.” You hip to this record?
GBC: Yeah. With Elvin and Sonny Dallas.
KW: That’s right! At that time that record was out of print. It was unavailable in America. He said “find that record.” Elvin at the time was playing with John Coltrane. The night before the session, he went down to the Village Gate to hear Trane and man they were bashing! And then he says “the next day Elvin showed up at my date at 10 o’clock, tipping!” He said it had the same intensity as it did the way he was playing Trane the night before, but it was Pianissimo. He said “that’s what you gotta do!”
GBC: So that’s a misconception about Elvin Jones. That he played loud?
KW: Absolutely! He wasn’t a loud drummer. Now I wasn’t around for Trane, but I used to see him at the Vanguard, and that’s the thing that knocked me out was that he didn’t play that loud. He could bring the dynamic level up when he wanted to, but it wasn’t always the same. And when he did, it wasn’t a harsh loud. He had a big sound on the instrument, so when you were all the way in the back, in the kitchen or the bar seat, you could hear every component of the drums.
And of course I found out from talking to him that he was into the Wilcoxen book as well. He studied all that stuff!
GBC: Well he was playing Bebop in the 50’s, with Tommy Flanagan!
KW: That’s right! Elvin Jones was the most misunderstood drummer in the history of jazz. Tony as well. Two of the most misunderstood drummers. Especially Elvin.
There are recordings of Elvin playing with Harry “Sweets” Edison and Jimmy Forrest. Playing at supper clubs like “The Embers,” playing tunes. Philly Joe Jones used to send him in on recording sessions! There’s a Red Rodney record with Tommy Flanagan and Oscar Pettiford and Philly played half of the sessions an something happened and he got Elvin to do the second half. But he didn’t tell Red Rodney he wasn’t going to be in the following day to finish the session! And so they get in there and here’s Elvin! Red didn’t know what to say. He’d never heard of this cat, man! Elvin was new in town. And Red told me the minute they started Red was like, “Yeah! Okay! Alright!” The record is called “The Red Arrow.” Philly’s on one half and Elvin is on the other. It’s really good!
GBC: What year?
KW: I think it’s 1957. So Philly Joe was one of the first champions of Elvin Jones when he first came to the city. He got him a lot of work. So there are a lot of those early sessions that Elvin is on. There’s a nice big band album, must be ‘59 maybe ‘60, with a vocalist named Bill Henderson. So he could play different situations. He was a master of the brushes. He went through Wilcoxen. All that stuff. He says, okay, now I’m going to play this according to my gospel. That’s what it’s all about!
Albums like “Stringsville” with Hank and Paul, Harry Lakosky plays violin. Raymond Scott, guy wrote the Looney Tunes theme song – “The Secret Seven” – Elvin fits in like a glove. Hank Jones “Here’s Love” with Kenny Burrell and Milt Hinton. Elvin sounds fantastic! Johnny Hartman’s record. He plays great on that record! One of my favorites, the LP called “Mr. Natural,” the only time Stanley Turrentine and Lee Morgan played together. Mccoy, Bob Cranshaw, and Elvin. They do a Lennon/Mccartney tune “Can’t Buy Me Love.” In the beginning, all Elvin does is play play Spangalang! No polyrhythms, no nothing, man, Nothing fancy. He’s just layin’ it in there just swinging his backside off. Taking care of business. Those are his basics!
GBC: Wow. Everything else is on top of those building blocks.
KW: That’s right. He was bad. Check those records out!
GBC: For sure. So you’re on faculty at Juilliard and at SUNY Purchase. What’s your opinion on how jazz is now learned in the classroom as opposed to the bandstand? Does teaching it in institutions of higher education change the way it’s perceived or played?
KW: Well, those two schools that I teach at, we try and give you on the job training, as if you were on the bandstand. It depends upon who is teaching it. What schools are starting to realize now that they didn’t early on, all of these people teaching at these schools had degrees, but they weren’t out on the road. They didn’t have the experience. So now in the last 5, 10, to 15 years they have people coming in that might not have the degree but they have the experience and know how to teach young people how to play this music. So you try and teach them your experiences.
But the thing about school, man, I was saying this to a student the other day, a lot of it’s cramming. You’re doing this for a grade. I only hope that after they get out of school and the smoke clears – because half of the stuff I told these guys, it hasn’t sunk in! It hasn’t sunk in at all. But hopefully if they keep practicing what I’ve given them they’ll say oh man, now I understand what he’s talking about!
Because man it’s like they’re just cramming. Plus they have all these other courses they have to take. They might have to work a second gig or something. You might have a lady. You got to take some time out for her or she’ll get pissed at you! *laughs* But you have 5 or 6 courses that you need to get stuff together for. The truth is, most of these guys in school want to play. But chances are very few of them will actually get to be out here playing.
GBC: So how do you balance it all and still get to where you wanna be musically?
KW: Well, for me it seems you have to do your own studying, on your own time. The most important thing is to listen to the music, ya know, study it.
The other thing that’s sad is that students have much more now than what I had.
GBC: Especially with technology.
KW: See all these records? *Gestures to the shelves around him* I didn’t just buy these in a day. This is years and years and years of collecting. The thing about is I would hear about some record, or I would look on the inside sleeves of the Blue Note Records and it would have pictures of the other records that you could buy from Blue Note. I’d be looking at that sleeve and I’d be salivating at these covers. I’d be thinking “I wonder how that record sounds!” Records like Dizzy Reese, who no one talks about. Great trumpet player. Check out that album “Starbright.” Hank Mobley, Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers, and Arthur Taylor. Great trumpet. Fantastic.
I didn’t have that kind of money for records. I would do chores and I could maybe get a dollar or two. There used to be this store called Woolworths, which was in the 60’s what Target or Walgreens is today. They had what we called cutouts. Records with holes in ‘em. For a dollar I remember finding Duke Pearson’s record “Sweet Honey Bee” with Freddie Hubbard, Joe Henderson, Ron Carter, Mickey Roker, and James Spaulding. Well records were a dollar. For 75 cents I could get a 45. You don’t even know what that is!
GBC: I’ve never seen one.
KW: I have one here. *Hands me a 45* 45 was the speed. Most LP’s run on a 33 and a 30. So these were 75 cents in those days. I remember buying James Brown’s “Funky Drummer” for 75 cents. Those two. “Sweet Honey Bee” and “Funky Drummer,” parts 1 and 2. I’d buy those and have a quarter left and I’d go the candy store and buy a bag of twizzlers. That was my allowance, man! I took both of those records home, both of them are great records, different but great music! I ran those records to death until I knew everything about them.
Whatever I could listen to I listened to. I listened to ‘em over and over again. Just like kids listening to rap records. They listen to it because they like it. If you play it enough you’re gonna know everything about it. And that’s what I did. I could sing all the solos. Drum solos, trumpet solos. I could sing ‘em all. Because I liked it! I loved the music. I loved it. I didn’t know anything about singing a whole chorus or the bridge or anything, but doing what I did helped me to learn that.
I say that because nowadays I have so much more. I tell guys about certain records, and they pull out their phone, and next thing I hear the music. And I say damn! You have any idea how much money it cost me just to buy that one record? How long it took me to get this record?! I would go on the road and go to these used record stores and find a record I’ve been looking for for years! When I got home I’d play it over and over again because I liked it. Now they just listen to it once!
They don’t know anything about it. They don’t know who’s on it! With just one click they can find out the information! But they don’t have the musical “inquisitiveness,” if that’s a word to say, damn well who is that piano player?! But they have all of the stuff there!
GBC: Well maybe because it’s so readily available it’s not special anymore?
KW: Maybe! But that’s what’s happened man.
GBC: Well what do you think about streaming online? Is it good or bad? It allows us opportunities to access all this music that maybe we couldn’t have forty years ago.
KW: Well from what I hear, see I don’t have any records out of my own out, but with streaming they’re punking leaders. You think they were getting punked in the LP and CD eras? Now they’re really getting punked! So it’s not good for that. But I guess now they have access. There’s no record distributors anymore. They used to be really important.
GBC: Yeah they cut out the middle man!
KW: Yeah! Totally cut out the middle-man. Now if you have a computer, you can get the record. But now, I say all the time, guys nowadays have much more, but know less. Much more, and know less. That’s the way it is.
GBC: I have one more important question that I need to ask: Where do you think we are in terms of racial issues in the jazz industry? Have we made progress, in your opinion, since you first came on the scene?
KW: Well, to me, in some ways it’s gone backwards and in some ways it’s gotten better. It seems like to me club owners and promoters, in some ways, are starting to see that this is black music, man. They want black musicians on the bandstand. But in my opinion, the music that some of these african american musicians are playing.. It ain’t jazz! A lot of them aren’t playing the blues and it’s now swinging! *Snaps his fingers in time* But there are a lot more opportunities for African americans.
Now the whole “me too movement” has moved into jazz. I don’t have a problem with women in music. The question is simply, “can you play?!”
GBC: That’s definitely the right attitude!
KW: Yeah. See so, for example, out of the blue this guy called me to make a record with Bertha Hope. You hip to her? Her husband was Elmo Hope. Hip to him?
GBC: Yup! “Elmo Hope Plays His Own Compositions.”
KW: Oh yeah! Elmo was one of the great composers. His music is very, very hard. Elmo Hope Trio. Or find this record by Harold Land called “The Fox,” which has a lot of Elmo’s tunes on it. Or find the record “Homecoming.” Elmo was in the bebop era and he’s a contemporary of Bud Powell, Thelonious Monk, and Herbie Nichols, but he writes totally different from those guys.
Well, Bertha played piano too and she can really play! You can feel the music is coming from the heart and she understands the music to the tee! I’d been trying to get a recording session to play her music, and I get the call and I said yeah! She’s bad, man! And the guy said well we wanna do something with her because she’s great but also because she’s a woman. In that case it’s a great thing. I’m glad to see it.
Now of course the greatest of all female instrumentalists, just one of the greats, is Mary Lou Williams. Now great female players like Renee Rosnes can really hang! It’s about the musicianship. See that prevails over everything. That’s the top thing. Musicianship.
For me, I don’t care if you’re a man, woman, if you’re turquoise colored.. If they can play their ass off, that’s who I want. I don’t care about any of that other stuff. I don’t care. Let’s go! It all comes down to how well you play this music. Musicianship. Exactly what Mel Lewis told me! Mel was right!
GBC: It all comes back to Mel, huh? Who are some drummers that I wouldn’t have heard about that I should know? Any unsung heros?
KW: You hip to Osie Johnson? Man, Osie is on practically any other drummer in the history of jazz! Literally hundreds of records! He’s on as many records that don’t have his name on it that do have his name on it! This cat was incredible!
GBC: Can you recommend some listening?
KW: Yeah. “The Happy Jazz of Osie Johnson.” Two LP’s that he made under his own name. He could also sing too. He was a great composer, could read his ass off, play big band, small band, anything that you needed him to do, he could do. He made records from about 1954 until he died in ‘65 or ‘66. There’s a record called “The Rhythm Section,” and it indeed was THE rhythm section with Hank Jones, Milt Hinton, Barry Galbraith, and Osie Johnson. They’re on hundreds of records as sidemen. They were doing four to five recording sessions per day in the 50’s going into the 60’s! They were the busiest session men around. They could do anything! O
Osie was bad! He was incredible. He made tons of records and nobody talks about him. He wasn’t scandalous or anything, he was one of those guys who would come in and take care of business. He had a beautiful sound on the instrument, and he fit in perfectly. I guess maybe that’s why nobody talks about him!
GBC: He did his job too well.
KW: He did his job too well! He just knew what to do. He had a heart attack and he died and Grady Tate took his place.
GBC: Grady was a singer too!
KW: Yeah he was a fantastic musician too that could play in any situation. When I got older I really started to get into Osie Johnson. My father had the two 10 inch records that Osie made for the Period label growing up. One was called “Osie’s Oasis,” and the other one was called “Johnson’s Whacks.” Those are fantastic records. I don’t know, I guess I got too hip for Osie, and I got into Grady Tate and all of the records he made in the 60’s with different people. But then I was in Japan and someone played a record of Oscar Pettiford’s big band and Osie was on that and when he put that record on and I said “Oh man! You’re not too hip for Osie!” and then I got back into him again. That’s what happens with some of these guys.
Find the record called “Deep Passion” with Oscar Pettiford, and Oscar Pettiford Big Band in Hi-Fi. Both of those records came out on Impulse and one of them has Gus Johnson, no relation. Those guys impressed me because they were adaptable. Their names were on all kinds of records – singers, big bands, whatever. I wanted to do that, along with Mel Lewis pushing me.
There’s much less recording now than there was 50, 60 years ago. But if you look at my discography you can see that I played with different people, in different styles.
GBC: Did you ever do any session stuff? Like funk or rock?
KW: I never wanted to do that. I have an appreciation for R&B and stuff. When I was coming up drummers like Billy Cobham, and Lenny White, and of course David Garibaldi were playing. I never wanted to play that. But there’s a right way and a wrong way to play that.
GBC: They play it the right way!
KW: They play it the right way. Harvey Mason. All them guys. I was into them. Know all about them. That was never my thing. I wanted to play jazz! There were so many guys playing all the other stuff. There were a lot of guys that could do that. Few guys could do what I was doing when I was coming up. But I appreciate what they do.
GBC: Well nowadays you have a lot of musicians that play a lot of music that may fall under the category of jazz, but it’s not swing. What are your thoughts on that?
KW: Well it’s been like that for a while. Nowadays they call them gospel drummers. They ain’t playing jazz! It is what it is. Some of those guys can really play what they play! It’s basically just fusion or funk.
GBC: Does any of that stuff fall under the category of jazz?
KW: No! Because we’re talking about straight eighths, not the triplet. We’re not talking about spangalang.
GBC: So none of the stuff on Bitches Brew? That’s not jazz?
KW: No. The only thing that’s jazz is the improvisation. They might have thrown in a few things that are jazz improvisation wise, but that’s different from jazz. For what it is, it’s good, if it’s played well! But it’s not jazz! *laughs* Call it something else, don’t call it jazz!
GBC: So it’s about phonetics. The label we put on it?
KW: Yeah. That’s what bothers me. Don’t call it jazz. But that’s what people are doing because it’s marketable. Jazz is spyro-gyro! *laughs* It’s the people that book the things, not the artists.
GBC: Where do you see it all going?
KW: Well you see, jazz will always be around. One way or another. There will always be people around that want to listen to it and will be interested in it. I’d be interested to see how many people, but jazz will always be around. I said this years ago and I’ll say it again; Jazz is not for everyone!
It’s interesting, man, how jazz was the pop music in the 30’s and 40’s. When Benny Goodman and the whole jazz craze started at the Palomar Ballroom in 1935, even he was surprised that he was a star! He became a star!
It’s hard to imagine nowadays that there used to be lines around the block to see jazz!
GBC: Hey man there are lines down the block to see you play with Bill Charlap at the Vanguard!
KW: (sarcastically) Yeah, right! Sure! *laughs* Well see Bill has managed to make the broadway, show tunes, slick, to dress them up. People here in New York like that kind of stuff. It’s amazing. Everytime we play there’s a line. It’s amazing that he’s able to do that.
We can put meat in the seats at Dizzy’s or the Vanguard for two weeks, but we leave New York and do okay. But in New York we do really well. That doesn’t happen all the time! We do two weeks next month at Dizzy’s, and two weeks at the Vanguard in September. That’s amazing man! *laughs*
GBC: Yeah! I’ve got one more question for you. I want to know what you do for fun? I can kind of tell with all of these records, but is there anything else non-music related that you do?
KW: Not much. My favorite thing to do in the summertime is to walk from here to the Brooklyn Promenade. You can see the Manhattan skyline.
GBC: Yeah I’ve been there.
KW: On a day like today, I might do it today, spring or summer, I might walk or ride my bike down there along the skyline. To me it’s hip man. It’s still the hippest city in the world! I love the New York summer! There’s nothing like it.
GBC: The heat doesn’t bother you?
KW: I’m a warm weather guy. I’ve been up since about 6 am. Nice day!
GBC: Were you up at 6 laying Wilcoxen?
KW: 6:30. Usually 6:30 or 7 o’clock.
GBC: What are you still working on?!
KW: Basics man! I’ve been through the book but I keep doing them. I do Pratt too. Snare Drum Solos for the Accomplished Snare Drummer. You hip to that? Get that book! You can never go through that stuff enough.
The hard parts are my warmups. *Mimes playing a section* I do it slow like that. You play it every day and you get better. Sometimes you play it left lead. Doubles and singles. 4 bars of each. Back and forth and what you’re looking for is the transition between the two to be smooth. Rudiments.
GBC: Have you ever played the rudimental ritual?
KW: I have. It’s great. But I’ve had guys that have come here and they can play the ritual, but they can’t play the actual rudiment coming from the ritual.
GBC: Well when Alan Dawson taught it he taught the rudiment first, then the ritual.
KW: Of course, man! I’m sure that if he knew about this he’d be turning over in his grave like a rotisserie. He’d say “no, no, no that’s not how it’s supposed to be!” These people think if they practice the ritual they won’t have to play the actual rudiments. Wrong! But that stuff is great! Alan was great. Gave me a lot of encouragement.
GBC: He’s on a lot of great records too! “Compassion” with Hank Jones!
KW: Absolutely. Ever heard the record he made with Illinois Jacquet? It’s called “Illinois Jacquet on Prestige.” That’s a great record! He’s on a James Moody record too on the Prestige label. “Don’t Look Away Now.” He played good on that record! Very nice man!
GBC: Before we call it a night, can I ask you to talk a little more about Philly Joe? He’s one of my all time favorites!
KW: Well I’d go down to the Vanguard, the set would start at 10 but I’d get there early, around 8 and get a ringside seat. I would sit there, all excited, like this, and then they’d start playing and the next thing I know I’m just, sagging down in my seat. I’d get depressed man! *laughs* I could practice for 24 hours, 24/7, and I realized I would never get half as good as Philly Joe Jones.
GBC: So what did he do? How did he get that good?
KW: Practiced! He was just a genius! The more I listened to those solos like “Julia” and things like that, that period of him.. That cat was a genius! How he put that stuff together like that.. That knocked me on my ass! “Gone” on that same record..
GBC: “Showcase.”
KW: Showcase. To help my students I slow it down. They had it on youtube and it sounded like shit slowed down. I said how you going to get this? They were sitting there like, duh! You need to take it apart! See I didn’t necessarily do that, I just listened to it over and over again until I could figure it out. But I’ll tell you man, some of that stuff, when I slowed it down I saw another picture of it. That’s what it takes. See that’s what interested me about Wilcoxen.
See Justin Dicioccio, who used to be up there at Manhattan School of Music, he used to be up at Music and Art High School on 135th and Common, right across from City Hall. Danny Druckman was there. Omar Hakim was there too! We were in the same class, man! Mark Sherman. We were in the percussion section together. Omar could play his ass of even then. Steve Jordan was there for a year also!
But Justin Dicioccio was a fantastic teacher. I learned a lot of stuff from him, man. He’s the one who turned me on to Wilcoxen. I had him not only for band but also for homeroom. One day in the morning he walked in and he says “hey, you got this book?” and he plops it this book down on the table. And I said no, and he says “well you do now!” That’s how I first found about that book. He said “this is where Philly Joe Jones comes from”. And he was right. When I started checking that book out I started seeing how it made sense. It inspired me to really get into the book. Plus all those other guys like Danny Druckman, they’d already been through that book. They could play that sh*t real fast. I couldn’t play it that fast, at least not then. That’s how I got into the whole bar by bar thing. One bar at a time. Playing it even. Accented notes up here, unaccented notes down here for articulation.
That’s how Philly Joe played it, but not just him. Sid Catlett.
GBC: Max played it too, right?
KW: Max taught Philly how to play it. Max helped Philly with that book. Now I never asked Max but I’m pretty sure Cozy Cole, who had a drum school with Gene Krupa in Midtown, taught Max, who was taking some lessons with Cozy Cole. He got it from Charley Wilcoxen. Wilcoxen had befriended all of the drummers. Ohio was a hotbed for jazz! Big bands coming through. Wilcoxen was a legit snare drummer, who loved swing era drummers. He befriended Gene Krupa and Buddy Rich, later on Joe Morello and Louis Bellson. He used to go check those guys out. Cozy came through there, probably with Cab Calloway’s band. Philly would come from Philadelphia to study with Cozy. He would also come down to Brooklyn to Max’s house and Max would help him with that stuff. But sh*t that stuff was bad, man!
